Leo: General Strategy - "AIM FOR THE ROOTS!!!"

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KiwE
Warrior
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 166
From: Sweden
#421 “Quote” Edit Post
How do you guys approach the Jack matchup? Would you say Leo has a big advantage over Jack?

Thanks
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1562
From: Norway
PSN: lilleboff
#422 “Quote” Edit Post
I wouldn't say big advantage, the matchup is pretty even in my experience. f,f+4 and f,f+4,3 is safe against Jack, due to some hitbox issue, so you can use that to your advantage. He can punish BOK+2 with f+2 every time though.

I just play the matchup almost like any other, because I suck at Tekken, but I use less 4 and 1,4 and more d/f+1 and d+1 to look for CH's. Space well and SWL to avoid his f,f+1 and FC d/b+1. His d/f+2 tracks to his right (also 1+2), so maybe you can bait that and you get a f+2,2 or u/f+1,2 punish. Make sure you punish it at least, so he can't use his d/f+2 for free. His keepout is rather weak, and most Jack players don't sidestep much, so pressure him with iWR+3 and BOK+3. Hopkick is good too if he's abusing FC d/b+1, and he can't punish it THAT hard (2,1_f+2). Make sure you know his oki and break his grabs. That's all I got...
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Bunny-
War Lord
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 709
From: Austria
PSN: Nightbunny
#423 “Quote” Edit Post
I would also say it is pretty much even, mabye a bit of an advantage for Jack.

Most of the time a whiffed move can be punished by Leo by a df2. But when Jack whiffs a move, your Dash->df2 will whiff too. This happened often to me, when trying to whiffpunish a Jack with df2 and then I got launched myself ...
Bok2 being unsafe against Jack is also a disadvantage. Leo's df2 is also punishable, the pushback is not enough against Jack.
Your Wallcombos against Bigs are not much better than against normal ones, because Leo already has good Walldmg.

SWL doesn't help much because depending on how fast he does his ff1, it will even track to his right. And df2 tracking to his right is enough to shut down sidewalking left.

But I didn't know that ff4 and ff43 is safe against him, are you sure of it? 2,1 will whiff completly and you can whiffpunish or what happens?

So my tips against Jacks:
- Never underestimate his range. Only try to whiffpunish his whiffed df2 with a ff2 or f2,2.
- Always punish his df2's
- Only try to sidestep at range Zero, so basically when you poke. His df2 or ff1 will come to slow.
- Break Grabs
- Never get your back to a wall!
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1562
From: Norway
PSN: lilleboff
#424 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Bunny-
But I didn't know that ff4 and ff43 is safe against him, are you sure of it? 2,1 will whiff completly and you can whiffpunish or what happens?


Ehm, I tested it right now, and only f,f+4 is safe. Or actually, it isn't even safe, because you can punish it with f+2. But 2,1 will not work, the first 2 whiffs and you block the second. Sorry about the retarded misinformation.
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KiwE
Warrior
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 166
From: Sweden
#425 “Quote” Edit Post
I really feel strongly that Leo has more then enough of the tools to dominate Jack; if she hasn't - who does? It's easy to just look at tiers but Tekken is much more matchup based than tierbased.

*) Hard punish on f22 that's easy to do (while Lars for instance has a greater most Lars players just do f24 anyways). Jack does df2 with his back against the wall and you do uf12 for wallsplat for massive damage means a lot.
*) Magic 4
*) Hopkick (combination of Magic 4 against ff1 for instance and hopkick against obvious fc db1 attempts etc are even better in this matchup due to Jack not having a strong 10/12f punish)
*) WR3 with pretty strong mixups after (as I said a combination of wr3 hopkick and magic 4 together with 'safe' longrange mid tools I feel is the key to giving jack a hard time).
*) One of Leo's natural weaknesses gets to be a less bother and that is how easy it is to sidestep her in this particular matchup.
*) Jack can't punish once more many key moves well like fc db3 (GG vs Bob for instance), ff2 and ff4 dominating space ("only" f2 against) and her having a DF2 with more payoff less risk also and qcf 2 makes that one of Jacks biggest strengths namely range isn't as dominant as it is against many other characters. Once again magic 4 etc against ff1 etc ... it just paints a picture of jack not being able to have the normal superiority in the range game that he basically almost has otherwise. Not having a good 10/12f punish against Leo is a gamechanger as that's where she's punishable all the time (hopkick, ws2, db2+1>2, b+2>2, bla bla) she can be more liberal with certain moves then for instance vs bruce/lars and whatnot.
*) Leo has better wall travel for stages like lightningstorm etc, more damage in general of combos.
*) Leo hands down is better on openstages. Can't be really argued imo. Post bound b31 game is changed in risk / payoff if Jack only has f2 on ff4 attempt. Jack in general is a medium damage character on open stages imo and has nothing of the likes of Leo's tools - he needs walls bad to shine.
*) Leo can go toe to toe against him against Walls. Jack probably has a small edge but not by much. She can punish uf1+2 wallsplat attempts / f1+2's etc and get out of wallpressure with her own back against the wall in unconventional ways (throw / reversal and whatnot). Has mobility sideways also. If she ducks / ss launches something she can go wall to wall something Jack can't in most cases. Same on parry. I happen to think d2, df1, 1, 323 is a kick ass wallfinish (less recovery easy to do, no random jack changing positions)
*) A certain degree of lockdown with d1, d2, wr3, df1, 1 is possible due to Jack's fastest move basically being 12f in practice if he doesn't try to go for f2 ch which he simply can't do all the time for many reasons (poor risk/payoff). If jack does df1 etc on guard the momentum is dead. Leo also has great comeback factor and the ability to random jack out (sadly magic 4's and hopkicks do this in Tekken 6, particulary when combined with a hellsweep). The key is if your throwescape defense is on point or not to make it an uphill battle for Jack.
*) Leo can punish low's pretty hard with lowparry travel and damage being exellent and say a db2 being guarded is basically 90 dmg (89) in the open and gg.
*) Leo can use her lifelead to turtle against Jack better then Jack can turtle against her back imo.
*) Jack not having a crushgame or SS against low's means she can just do df2+3, d4, qcf1 pressuring like crazy and hold her own in the chipping with lows. Leo herself has amazing tools like uf21 and uf3 to deal with both lowspammers and crush safely if you don't want to go for the hopkick. Also has a hellsweep for walls etc resetting situations (jack simply can't get hit by db2+1 after a walltravelcombo cause then it's the end). Or just use uf3 and fc db3 (no crush) for a safe game.

It's all theory fighting though.
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Bunny-
War Lord
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 709
From: Austria
PSN: Nightbunny
#426 “Quote” Edit Post
Hmm, I made the experience that the tools are pretty even. And if it is a walled stage the first one who launches wins the round.
Both have good wallcarry and both have amazing wallgame. Leo's wallgame gets better than in other matchups because Jack can't sidestep this easy out of the danger zone near the wall.

You mentioned qcf1 and 2 being good against Jack. I must say I find them useless against him. A well placed df2 will fuck you for crouchdashing at him.

In theory maybe Leo should work good, but the experience I made is that Marduk and Drag have it easier against Jack. Drag's tracking is bad, which doesn't matter against Jack. Jack lacks a panic button, so Dragunov can use his Plusframes very well. And Marduk's uf3, which has lowcrush and is 0 on block, is enough to shut Jack down. It is sidestepable, but not by Jack.
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KiwE
Warrior
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 166
From: Sweden
#427 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah but Marduk and Drag are probably like the best characters against Jack (drag wr 2 rapes and also ch tool jabs). I would probably say Marduk Drag Leo, Bryan (3+4 shutdown, generally safe and can apply sort of more things with +2 and JU punish) and Bruce are great against him (b2 all day wr3, cd3) are some of the best and Steve (press buttons all day, no crush and hard for jack to handle b1 etc), maybe Lee also (14f punish and wallfinish and travel). I think Jack having either good matchups or bad matchups is why he's not considered a higher tier cause he's more matchup dependent then most of the cast. I just don't think Jack really can keep Leo out of Leo really wants to get in with her tools and has trouble getting in if Leo wants to turtle.

On a walled stage I agree pretty much launch and over but on bigger stages like lightningstorm Jack can't take to the wall directly on df2 and also as I said stages without walls Leo is better. QCF1 and 2 I agree in hindsight are probably pretty shitty but it must be bothersome for Jack even just having a crouching Leo in his face having bad punish on ws2 and fc df3 in general compared to some of the cast and a ws2 would mean GG. Df2+3 @+5f can't be easy to deal with as Jack either with not much being able to stop ws2 anything he does (and that's a f2) and no SS to speak of etc setting up a harder guessinggame and better risk/payoff then in general. Jack's hitbox also does so that certain things hit on the ground like b1 etc (I think?) not being fun for him.

Last edited by KiwE on Jan 17th, 2012 at 04:39

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axe_ninja
2nd Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: England
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#428 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mr. KuLa
i know what moves lead to her stances -_-..

my question was when is the right time to use them? cause if you swith to stance from those move you became vulnerable.


When doing the crouch one you have 1 which is fast and 4 which is fast into the standing stance which can go into 2, which is proper fast and juggles on counter hit. d+1+2 stance is good for predicting highs and punishing.
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IamDead
6th Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 66
From: Hungary
PSN: BenyoBoy
#429 “Quote” Edit Post
So guys, I trained a LOT in the past years and I think I'm getting near as possible to leave the button masher casual style I did from Tekken 2 to 5 completely (I don't want to say I'm a decent player coz I'm not). I like online playing, but there's two characters I'm completely useless against. That two is Lili and Asuka. I stopped playing ranked games after juggernaut rang because of every second match I played was against a high ranked Lili player who r**ed my ass. What's the good strategy against them with Leo?
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1562
From: Norway
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#430 “Quote” Edit Post
With Lili, spacing is very effective, especially SS/SW (SSL/SWL). She's very linear, and with just one well timed sidestep you can end the round with your juggle damage. Your pokes are generally stronger and your punishers are a lot stronger. So I usually turtle in that matchup, because that's where you have your advantage. You don't want to be throwing out random stuff of your own, because her sidestep and backdash are very evasive.

With Asuka, you want to make sure you first are able to duck all her m,h-strings and low parry all her mid,l-strings consistently. Just go to defensive training or something and practice. SSR/SWR is your best bet. You also want to be aware of her most used parry and crush setups with b+3. Same as against Lily, don't whiff stuff because her f+2 is a really strong whiff punisher, but her movement isn't as evasive as Lily's. Her block punishment is pretty horrendous, so don't be afraid to use slightly more unsafe moves. Using moves like hopkick and d/b+1+2,1, is hugely in your favor. In this matchup I usually play a little bit more agressive, but I try to be unpredictable with pokes so she can't just abuse b+3, parry and f+2 for whiff punishment.

That's all I can think of for now.
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IamDead
6th Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 66
From: Hungary
PSN: BenyoBoy
#431 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks for the comment! The advices you wrote seems to be effective, I'll work on it!
But *sigh*, I guess I need te learn sidestepping (I'm not using at all), and not only using pitbull-type strategy.
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: Norway
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#432 “Quote” Edit Post
It's a 3D game you know
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IamDead
6th Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Hungary
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#433 “Quote” Edit Post
Of course, because of the graphics, right? xD

Naah, I know, but I'm not a talented player/gamer so I always looked to sidestepping as a new way of errors and more chance to fail.
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1562
From: Norway
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#434 “Quote” Edit Post
Just learn some simple "sidestep setups" to begin with and move on from that. Like u/f+2,1 blocked, sidestep, d/f+2 or d/f+1 blocked, sidestep, hopkick. After a while you'll be using sidesteps and sidewalk all the time with your movement and poking. The problem in the beginning when learning movement is that you'll be afraid to move because your execution wont be perfect and you'll get hit a lot while trying to evade stuff. That will all improve once you get used to canceling into block quickly and hitconfirming/block-confirming your pokes. Just takes time. Watch some videoes of Knee, and you'll see how it's possible to perfect even the smallest of movement without ever getting hit because of it.
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IamDead
6th Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Hungary
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#435 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by lilleboff The problem in the beginning when learning movement is that you'll be afraid to move because your execution wont be perfect and you'll get hit a lot while trying to evade stuff.

When I tiried a few times before, exactly this happened!
Originally posted by lilleboff
Just learn some simple "sidestep setups" to begin with and move on from that. Like u/f+2,1 blocked, sidestep, d/f+2 or d/f+1 blocked, sidestep, hopkick. After a while you'll be using sidesteps and sidewalk all the time with your movement and poking.

My friends tried to teach me sidestepping, but "go to practice and mash the down and up buttons fast" was the advice I usually get. This is a way more exact and I think it's good to start with! I'll do this, thank you very very much!
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tekkengaijin
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#436 “Quote” Edit Post
i'm looking for a safe move whenever I use b+3,1,b cuz i keep getting jab or launched right after.so far I use 3,4 right after but i know some one can counter it. I use b+3,1 and db+2,2 for poking alot
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: Norway
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#437 “Quote” Edit Post
Easily solved: don't use b+3,1,b.

All the KNK transitions using b are slow and don't evade shit.
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Bunny-
War Lord
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#438 “Quote” Edit Post
and db2,2 for poking is also shit
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2PP
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#439 “Quote” Edit Post
What would be the best way to approach a Bryan player with Leo? I am a turtle player who will wait and punish but Bryan is a really safe character and I always have trouble fighting him.
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lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: Norway
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#440 “Quote” Edit Post
What I do is I try to fight him at about range 2, so not entirely in his face because he's hard to step there. You have better pokes from that distance, and BOK+2 will crush so many of his moves. He also has to be really careful of your sidesteps from that range, because a sidestep to d/f+2 will often end the round. Apart from that it's just the usual stuff; space, punish, break throws etc.
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