Defense is where most players get the chance of starting a juggle or landing a bigger punishment In high level game play.
Because top player don't just use the launcher or certain heavy moves directly.
For top players, the heavier damage comes from whiff, lag recovery, low parry or a chance to CH.
But of course sometime you'll get to see them trying their touch of gamble.
Defense truly highlight the skill of a players and top players really does have good reaction.

Offense, in most high level match involve mainly safe moves.
You'll see many hit and run, mix-up and CH setup situation.
But it's still consider important, when you meet super safe opponent.
There are in fact many matches in high level tournament where you see very little or totally no juggle involved.
Well there are a small group of characters like Steve that has a big arsenal of safe moves that really make them excel in offense over many others.

The video posted by green lei is a good example of nin inflicting damage using quick safe offense and knee consistently space out and ss to sucessfully return fire but of course knee also uses a fair bit of offensive setup.

But from my experience in playing and watching, most top players uses more denfense than offense.

Anyway, kiwi which tier list are you using?
There are many list like the Japanese arcadia game guides, that do not place A.king in class A

Last edited by retsu_himura on Nov 5th, 2011 at 19:47

He's not using any list other than his own opinions. Really bad opinions.

Defense is, most of the time, reaction dependent and gaming reaction is the core fundamental of all fighting games.
So players that develops good gaming reaction usually stands higher than the rest.

Offensive mixup and setup, makes a player looks fancy and skillful, but it's a little like gambling,
because whatever follow next in a mixup or setup is not guaranteed.
Both side are guessing, in most situation the side that guess correction gets to dealt the damage.
The offender can get punished himself if the defender guesses correct or the defender has really good reaction.

I wouldn't which is more important between defense and offense.
But from experience, it's much more frustrating against good defensive opponent than an offensive one.

But if u were to ask me what's important,
I would generally say it reaction and knowledge and input execution for some characters.
Gaming knowledge like frame data and what to do in all difference situation
and of course all these knowledge requires a certain level of reaction to make them works.
And also the mental part, how quick can u adjust to your opponent style.

Knowledge can be gain through reading up all the guides, forum and match videos,
but gaming reaction can only be develop through regular playing and training.
Top players all has good reaction, seeing how they can consistently performs task like breaking throws and low parrys.

Listen. My opinion about defense is just my opinion. that doesnt makes it the most right answer.
As i metioned over and over, every player is welcomed to have their own statement.
But you still have to throw out some examples to defend your statement. So we know your reason behind your statement.

a little back to every opinion of my "defense" post. thank you. but mostly, thank you because we seems to share the same vision. Dont mind what kiwi posts.

Now, Armor King is not a good character. King is even better.

Here's an example:
- uf4 King is hop knee, safe from reversal. uf4 AK is hopkick
- King has alot of NH launchers, whilst most of AK's is CH. Also, most of AK CH left opponent on off axis stun, that really hard to bound afterward.
- King has a huge arsenal of throws and multi throws. AK? He only has 3 throw string.
- King has more throw that could make some advantage, i.e: b+1+2 position switch, or uf+1+2 wall throw. AK has none.
- King iSW left him standing, giving advantage of oki's, while AK's iSW left him KND, reset.
- and many moves that only King has, and gives guaranteed followups, and safe too

Heres an example of Punishing section
KING
Standing
? -10: 1,2 (22 dmg, +6)_2,1 (22 dmg,+6)
? -12: b1,2 (31 dmg, +1)
? -14: df1,2 (27 dmg, +2~4)
? -15: f2,2 (28 dmg, +6)_uf4
? -16: b3 (23 dmg, KND [long range])
? -18: 1+2,3 (43 dmg, KND)
Low punishing:
? -10: ws1 (12 dmg, +8)
? -11: ws4 (20 dmg, +5)
? -15: FC df2

ARMOR KING
Standing
? -10: 1,2 (17 dmg,+5)_2,1 (22 dmg,+6)
? -12: b12 (31 dmg, +6)
? -14: f1+4 (28 dmg + knd)_DU
? -15: uf4_f21[far]
Low punishing:
? -11: ws4 (20 dmg,+8)
? -15: uf4_ws1

Off the punishing departement, i'll say AK is better though. Its because of his DU. His perfect Dark Upper. Leash on 14f, although its jab punishable on block. Dont really mind the 14f, its the compatibility of DU from a WD that makes JCDR AK's its great on punishing a whiffed moves.

Now, King and AK has different playstyle. So we cant really judge if King or AK is better. But, because AK is weak, every AK player has to rely on CH-baiting and DU punishing, long range. AK is good at long range. JCDR know of this and he ALWAYS plays turtle to maximized AK's potential. Binchang in T7 final jokingly said that JCDR only knew to moves BACKWARD. And if you havent realized it yet, JCDR ALWAYS CHOOSE AN INFINITE STAGE. Its the same like me, i have HUGE confident if playing at infinite stages.

Get the point? Bryan, Lars and King is optimal if used aggressively. But playing aggresively makes them bad at defense. How could you defend when your still attacking. Whilst a turtle character not only has already given with suitable defense tools, but also, supposedly has a better defense.

So why are you think that Feng and AK's need higher damage? If they had higher or same damage as Bruce. We only need to turtle, bait and punish. with a same juggle damage. Cheap. This theory also supported by retsu himura's statement, that attacking is 50-50, gamble. While defending on long range is more exact.

I want to tell you guys to watch again how JCDR beat Knee in WCG 2011 qualifier. JCDR stays calm when he was cornered by Knee. While Knee couldnt do the same when AK pokes him to death. And with what tools? df1? d4? d3? Damn! isnt df1 AK's is the same as Feng's df1? d4 and d3 also? And Feng has better tools than AK, why anyone bother crying that feng is weak?

if you dont have perfect defense, why dont start developing one?
if Yuu and Hao is managed to reach the top why cant we? we all use the same Feng.
Whats your problem?

Yea that pretty much nails it right there.I never complained about Feng's damage. To be honest, real Feng players never complain about his damage.I've only heard these complaints by people who don't even use him.

Feng has an answer for every situation, there's many different ways to approach many different charactrers with Feng. He has enough high crushes to keep Steve Fox at bay, he has b4 for movement/aggressive characters (I consider b4 anti-xiaoyu, lars and Lei), uf2 is prob the dirtiest move on his command list considering it's safe on block, parries punches and pretty much gets him out of any intricate set up your opponent is trying to trip you up with. It's really easy for Feng to adapt to his opponents, and that's what makes turtling with him so effective.

If there's anything I'd want to complain about, there'd be 2 things.

1. He is very limited when it comes to combo-ing smaller hit boxes.

BT d3, crouching 1, WS1 does NOT work against too many characters, same goes for doing this when you get up on oki with 3 and trip someone like Kaz, Lars, or Law (not to mention females).

I noticed they changed that in Tag 2 though @_@ so my wish has come true.

2. This isn't really a big deal at all, but I REALLY...REALLY wish his f2 wasn't 17 frames. Many characters have amazing 14f CH moves..this is one move I would LOVE to interupt other characters with this, but meh oh well, I can do fine without it.

I've been using Feng and Feng ONLY for 6 years, now that TTT2 is coming, I decided to pick up more (Mig, Lei, Wang and I can't wait to give Jinpachi a try!!). Everytime I practice with those chars I find myself missing Feng more and more.

I'm gonna be at NEC btw guys. How many of you will show up?

Its up in Philly right? I wish I could go but I'm going to save my next PTO time for a tournament in NOVA. Be sure to let us know your own impression of Feng if you get the opportunity to play TTT2 while you're there.

Oh man I can't wait. I've watched so many videos, I kinda developed my own impression already.... but there's only one HUGE problem I face . . . . . . ..





I have no....FUCKING idea....how to play a stick . . .. .

Yeah that's one reason I wasn't so pumped about going. I'm looking to get a stick soon but I don't see it happening at the moment. Wouldn't be much fun playing the game if I can't play how I would on a pad..

@ OffInBed and THE SCRUB ZILLA
Good luck guys. can we get a vid of your matches?

btw, we almost finished our national WCG2011 qualifiers here.
and last night Knee came, and we talk a bit, and he's look very enthuastic. looking forward to had several matches with him tonight.
some photos proof. btw, im the guy with black suit next to Knee.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6191&type=1

Also, the Thailand champ is came last night too. had some matches, played like a beast, though he's still saving his main character for the tourney.

back to the topic.
one more question.

what is the true meaning of "punishing"?

Last edited by adipati on Nov 11th, 2011 at 03:07

@adipati

I don't think we'll be allowed to record with our own equipment. So the only matches I think will get recorded are the ones if I were to be in the top 16 or something lol.

If anyone is interested, these matches were recorded last Saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBlAxlKJNcM

Shame on me for not punishing death fist ONCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WMT...feature=related

This is me against someone I've played THOUSANDS of times. Thought I'd put a vid of me winning and a vid of me losing to be balanced.

Keep in mind that I just made the transition from HDTV to CRT, dropped some combos cuz of that, also I had a few weird execution moments (doing df1+2 on walla splat) but overall I feel pretty ready for this NEC. Feel free to give me feedback on my Feng.

OH YEA!

Sorry for double posting.

Adipati how did the session with knee go? Do you have any recordings yourself? I'd like to see your Feng as well.


Also this thread is way off subject lol

I think Feng's offense is sub par at best but against the wall he is scary. He is designed to be a turtle so usually I start the round off as safe as possible trying to figure my opponent's play style first. I would turtle and utilize uf2, b4 and 1,2 a lot in the first round and usually back off after I land 1 or 2 pokes. If I feel confident then I pressure a little bit more with df1, df22, d4, d2, and plenty of sidesteps and backing off after a poke or 2 or 3. but for the most part, my main objective is to put them against the wall. and I mean everything I do is to put them against the wall. once they are at the wall, i keep them there with alot of 1,2, b4, uf2, d4, and UF22 and SS4. on a no-wall stage I feel that I am at a huge disadvantage... but that's just my play style.
At the end of the day, if you feel confident that you can lock your opponent down after playing him a few matches then Feng's pressure is not bad at all.

Thanks man. I dont force you to capture your match to know how well your play in the tourney.
Just enjoy the tourney, dont think of anything else, except having fun, meet new friends and get new experiences. You'll win a tournament someday

About knee and Yuu. Yes, i have a mirror match against him. i'll uploaded it as soon i have time, ive been very busy lately. Also, ive finished doing interview of Knee and Yuu, but i still had the time to met them today. so if you guys had any question, feel free to ask me. Via email please (adipatirahmat@yahoo.com)

btw, heres my Album of WCG2011
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...8336&type=1
feel free to add me on your friend list.

Hey adipati!

I'll add you on facebook soon enough (when I'm not at work)

How'd the interview go? I couldn't think of questions lol... and I must see videos like right now