Devil Jin Frame Data

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TYRANT DEMON
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Joined: Aug 2004
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Update:
Originally posted by FoxSteve
The Links to the TZ Notations frame data don't seem to work -
Is there anyway to re-link or re-post em...

Ok I found this one on TekkenArena -

http://www.tekkenarena.com/forum/vi...=124&t=4465

Doriyah



i found this site in another section from this forum which i think it would be pretty useful to have here for you guys to check it out. Its in Japanese so if anyone knows japanese please help to translate at least the move names

DJ's Frame Data

Last edited by MCP on Aug 3rd, 2010 at 16:29

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Sk37ch
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Devil Jin Frame Data (TZ Notation)

There are a couple of moves that are still in Japanese. If anyone knows the american notation, please feel free to post them up on the websites character forums and they will be changed, along with any other corrections that need to be made.

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Gandido
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm going to stick this topic since it is an important resource to have.
I'll update the main page with some sort of chart that we can design to work with the forum, so we can have them translated.
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DevilKnight
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Not all of this will be right. f,f+2 isn't -11 on block, it's -12.
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honkhet
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
hmm, u+4 is i20?
didn't realize it was that slow,
it seemed to be faster than that
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Hi what are frames?
DevilKnight
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Tekken runs at 60 frames per second, the fastest attack in the game with the exception of something like Yoshimitsu's flash is a standard jab at 10 frames. Quick mids average around 15 frames, slower mids averae around 20 frames and lows average around 17 frames in speed.

When a move is blocked, the block stuns of various attacks are different and can give you either an advantage on block or a disadvantage, same with connecting an attack. Moves are commonly disadvantaged on block and advantaged on hit, though with all the moves and move properties in the game, there are multiple exceptions.

If a move happens to give you +1 advantage through block or hit, and the very next thing you do as you recover is a jab, while the opponent also jabs as they recover; your jab will beat theirs by one frame, as their jab effectively took 11 frames to come out compared to yours. If you'd delayed your jab by 3 frames before you threw it, your advantage is lost and their immediate jab will beat yours.

Lets say you land a poke that gives you +6 on hit. Since the fastest attack they have is 10 frames and they have to wait until 6 frames after you to attack; it means that the fastest move they can make to counter you is 16 frames, so any attack you have tht is 15 frame speed or faster is too fast for them to interupt and will beat them out if they try to.

You you were only at +1 and they expected you to use your frame advantage to force a jab, they could duck the jab and punish from crouching, and you would have to risk the fast mid to beat them ducking. If you'd done that at +1, they could have jabbed out your mid, but at +6 you can do either with security and still beat them if they try anything.

If you have a move the has a juggle property on counter hit, or CH; you can calculate how to beat out which attacks and which is the best time to use the counter hitting move. If the move is 13 frames and you do it at the same time that an opponent attacks with a move that is 14 frames or slower, then you will CH their attack and get a juggle; just the same as if you used this move to beat a jab of theirswhile you were at +4.

Because jabs are 10 frames, an attack that has a disadvantage of -10 or more when blocked can be jabbed by your opponent before you can block. That means if you use it recklessly, they will keep using jabs to punish you each time. If the move has -15 on block and the opponent has a 15 frame move that launches, they can get a big juggle when they block if they punish correctly, so you have to be extra careful with the risk of moves that can be launched and can manage your risk accordingly. Moves that are -9 or less cannot be punished with jabs of course.

Similarly, moves that give +10 advantage or more can give you free jabs, but most commonly is the exception of 'false' frame advantage. When +10 allows jabs without them blocking, it is considered 'true' frame advantage, but most often with a move like a running attack that gives you +17 when blocked; they can't move or attack until after 17 frames, but they can block right away, even with jabs. What you can do with false advantage is use the fact that they cannot interupt anything you do by enforcing a mixup that makes them guess between blocking mids or lows that you might do.

Understanding you characters frame database allows you to use the mathematics to calculate when you use which moves and how to set up situations where certain moves are best, while you can also decide which punishable moves are worth the risk, and which moves are not worth the risk. Knowing frame data of opponents characters also means you understand exactly how to punish or play around their moves and which of your moves will punish their unsafe moves most effectively.

A lot more easy than trying to work it all out for yourself.
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by DevilKnight
Tekken runs at 60 frames per second, the fastest attack in the game with the exception of something like Yoshimitsu's flash is a standard jab at 10 frames. Quick mids average around 15 frames, slower mids averae around 20 frames and lows average around 17 frames in speed.

When a move is blocked, the block stuns of various attacks are different and can give you either an advantage on block or a disadvantage, same with connecting an attack. Moves are commonly disadvantaged on block and advantaged on hit, though with all the moves and move properties in the game, there are multiple exceptions.

If a move happens to give you +1 advantage through block or hit, and the very next thing you do as you recover is a jab, while the opponent also jabs as they recover; your jab will beat theirs by one frame, as their jab effectively took 11 frames to come out compared to yours. If you'd delayed your jab by 3 frames before you threw it, your advantage is lost and their immediate jab will beat yours.

Lets say you land a poke that gives you +6 on hit. Since the fastest attack they have is 10 frames and they have to wait until 6 frames after you to attack; it means that the fastest move they can make to counter you is 16 frames, so any attack you have tht is 15 frame speed or faster is too fast for them to interupt and will beat them out if they try to.

You you were only at +1 and they expected you to use your frame advantage to force a jab, they could duck the jab and punish from crouching, and you would have to risk the fast mid to beat them ducking. If you'd done that at +1, they could have jabbed out your mid, but at +6 you can do either with security and still beat them if they try anything.

If you have a move the has a juggle property on counter hit, or CH; you can calculate how to beat out which attacks and which is the best time to use the counter hitting move. If the move is 13 frames and you do it at the same time that an opponent attacks with a move that is 14 frames or slower, then you will CH their attack and get a juggle; just the same as if you used this move to beat a jab of theirswhile you were at +4.

Because jabs are 10 frames, an attack that has a disadvantage of -10 or more when blocked can be jabbed by your opponent before you can block. That means if you use it recklessly, they will keep using jabs to punish you each time. If the move has -15 on block and the opponent has a 15 frame move that launches, they can get a big juggle when they block if they punish correctly, so you have to be extra careful with the risk of moves that can be launched and can manage your risk accordingly. Moves that are -9 or less cannot be punished with jabs of course.

Similarly, moves that give +10 advantage or more can give you free jabs, but most commonly is the exception of 'false' frame advantage. When +10 allows jabs without them blocking, it is considered 'true' frame advantage, but most often with a move like a running attack that gives you +17 when blocked; they can't move or attack until after 17 frames, but they can block right away, even with jabs. What you can do with false advantage is use the fact that they cannot interupt anything you do by enforcing a mixup that makes them guess between blocking mids or lows that you might do.

Understanding you characters frame database allows you to use the mathematics to calculate when you use which moves and how to set up situations where certain moves are best, while you can also decide which punishable moves are worth the risk, and which moves are not worth the risk. Knowing frame data of opponents characters also means you understand exactly how to punish or play around their moves and which of your moves will punish their unsafe moves most effectively.

A lot more easy than trying to work it all out for yourself.


lool wow thanks man, so basically there are around 60 frames per second so they are basically just like speed, and after an attack you can be at a + frame advantage or - disadvantage and if you are at + frame advantage you will hit them the next go if you hit with a lower frame move then they try to hit at then you will hit them, but if they are still blocking then they can remain blocking? Am i right is there anywhere that you can get frame data in english online and also does steve have really low frames because hes so damn fast and always beats me online lool im so crap against steve and Law too! THANKS A LOT MAN
DevilKnight
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
There's such thing as attacking at the wrong time. Frame data helps you understand better when it's a bad time to attack after your opponent has used a certain move, but it will not help you with somethings like delayable strings.

If a character for example does 2 hits (sometimes unsafe on their own) with a third that they can delay to trick you into attacking. This type of tactic got stronger in T6 than it was in DR; partly because of the movement but also in DR if they delayed their hit too long, then an early attack from you could beat their last hit, but this doesn't seem as common in T6.

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken5/_framedata.php

Here's the frame database for 5.0 (the PS2 Tekken 5) to give you an idea of how things go for the characters in general. It would do you some good to have a read of the description for how to understand frames aswell as the data in the database before selecting Devil Jin's data to look at.

Keep in mind however that while move properties and speeds remain very similar across Tekken versions, several moves for each character will undergo some form of change from one version to another as a necessity; sometimes with a move being replaced with a brand new version, the original being either completely taken out or given a new command.

http://sdtekken.com/t5dr/frame-data/

This serves as the frame database for DR on PS3. Key point is that back in DR, Devil Jin had a 10 frame jab, whereas about half the cast in DR had an 8 frame jab, which could complicate the frame and poking game for him a whole lot more in those times, but know that in Tekken 6 all characters where changed to 10 frame attacks now; which is nice.

Tekken 6 frame data in as comprehsenive a form at present would not be easy to find (yet), but you can use this guide for Devil Jin's Tekken 6 frames until one is done:

Devil Jin Frame Data (TZ Notation)

Also, it might serve you well to check out this thread for a comprehensive tutorial about understanding and manipulating each aspect of the Tekken engine; which provides key information without becoming convoluted. (although it was written for 5.0)

Tekken Engine 101

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el06
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Are all of the frame data listed accurate? I don't really understand the Japanese ones.
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FoxSteve
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
The Links to the TZ Notations frame data don't seem to work -
Is there anyway to re-link or re-post em...

Ok I found this one on TekkenArena -

http://www.tekkenarena.com/forum/vi...=124&t=4465

Doriyah
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LP SPARDA
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Anyone know if 1+4 is natural with or without CH?
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ReNikon
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by LP SPARDA
Anyone know if 1+4 is natural with or without CH?
Natural on both. Easy to test in practice mode, just set computer on "stand to guard". If second hit is not natural, it'll block it.
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Ben111
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Not sure why you would use that move though
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LP SPARDA
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Ben111
Not sure why you would use that move though


Exactly. Why would I bro. I got to play certain individuals who just shouldn't get hit by a lot of things while using dj and just kept getting hit while doing my mixup. Ofcourse it isn't to be abused but I play a bit ...abstract with dj. You probably don't remember me from dc. Played you for a while then filthy rich. I'll explain more when I see you in NEC.

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Ben111
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by LP SPARDA
Exactly. Why would I bro. I got to play certain individuals who just shouldn't get hit by a lot of things while using dj and just kept getting hit while doing my mixup. Ofcourse it isn't to be abused but I play a bit ...abstract with dj. You probably don't remember me from dc. Played you for a while then filthy rich. I'll explain more when I see you in NEC.

Reno you're the man. Friday it kept earning unexpected damage in my winning matches while switching up.


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