mind games with jin

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Tuansil
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 522
From: Australia
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
i am not sure if its just me or anybody else that opponent does not really duck against jin.

other that CD+4 which i rarely do only, none of jins move is actually forcing them to duck much making his ECD+1 or hopkick hard to launch a turtlish opponent.

its not that jin doesnt have good low. its just that his low attack is either too little in damage or the risk of getting block and punished is very high.

d+4, 15dmg, risky move if blocked..
d+3,3 17dmg quite a good move not many opponent actually block it
db+4, 15dmg same no one really block this and its a +2 frame, and on ch free db2,2,3
1, d+3, low dmg moves that opponent does not really block
CD+4 sometimes reliable sometimes the worse move ever...
df+1,4~4.. risky but i use it sometimes
2,1,4~4...i don't even bother doing it
ECD+4..this move

i tried to do all those low attack all the time but opponent doesnt really care to duck..making it really hard for me to juggle them as i pitbull alot.

unlike other mishima family their killing hellsweep almost have something to synergy with. especially devil jin's hellsweep and ff+2 can give opponent enough brain damage from thinkin should block down or just stand..

tried to grab as well, but that makes ECD+1 useless as well since to grab. u have to get close and i dont see people doing ECD+1 on close range.

so yeah give me advice on how to make them duck, or am i just too readable?
Bullet2k4
Berserker
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 401
From: United States
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
it depends on who you play really.jin is at all not a offensive character.you have to play him right to win
Tuansil
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 522
From: Australia
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
the way you are telling me is that jin is never a pit buller vsing top tier character.

especially, steve and brian...
Hotnikkelz
Shihan
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 124
From: Trinidad and Tobago
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
you can pitbull somewhat, but only in short bursts.
Jin has punch parry and his jabs when they hit give TREMENDOUS hitstun, that makes many things uninterruptable.
Jin's power lies within his frame data, it's pretty awesome if you ask me.

He doesn't have good lows but using enough WD -> mids eg df+1, and lows eg CD+4 and WD~db+4 with throws can carry you far in mind games.

most of my mind games when i play Jin revolve around the df+1 string, 2,1 and plain old 1.
Signature I'll beat you with a banana in one hand -Marduk
Tuansil
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 522
From: Australia
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Hotnikkelz
most of my mind games when i play Jin revolve around the df+1 string, 2,1 and plain old 1.


thats what i am trying to avoid as against steve and brian i find this tactic loses out its efficiency. still works but really really tough against steve. i oftenly dish out dewhf to scare them but heh...

my recent games are always

1,d+3
1,3~3
1,2,1
1,df+1
1,b+4
1,db+4
1,ewhf
2,1,2,1,2,1,4
2,1, d+2
2,1,4 d+2
df+1, ~4
and sometimes 1,2,3 and 1,2,4

bored of this...
Kickasscrew
Champion
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 268
From: Australia
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Tuansil
thats what i am trying to avoid as against steve and brian i find this tactic loses out its efficiency. still works but really really tough against steve. i oftenly dish out dewhf to scare them but heh...

my recent games are always

1,d+3
1,3~3
1,2,1
1,df+1
1,b+4
1,db+4
1,ewhf
2,1,2,1,2,1,4
2,1, d+2
2,1,4 d+2
df+1, ~4
and sometimes 1,2,3 and 1,2,4

bored of this...


Try using more bf2 or bf21 (delay the 1) or bf212 (again delay the 1) if you're vsing a Steve that likes to ss a lot. They might start to think you are just going to do the bf2 alone and attack you after blocking it but however, if you delay the 1, the last hit from bf212 will hit on CH. bf2 also tracks. If they start knowing how to duck the second hit of bf212 then that's when the mix ups come in.

Don't know but it works good for me as good pokes. Try it out and see if it fits your gameplay.
Tuansil
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 522
From: Australia
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
thanks for the evil intent tactic...i abuse LC with DJ but not evil intent with jin...

dumb me.
j00n
Getting Old
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 955
From: USA New York
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
As stated before, Jin's mind games rely heavily on his frame data along with the proper T5DR fundamentals (spacing, holding b, etc.). Check out the frame data to set-up some proper frame traps of your own.

The only mind game I've pulled off with Jin against an aggressive player is bdc~iws+2. The reach is longer than his actual arm and yields easy dmg. Fear of getting hit by bdc~iws+2 will allow Jin to advance but not by much.

Believe it or not, Jin's offense comes from his defense. Everything else is ballsy, although I admit myself to doing some ridiculuous things myself.

Not sure if stated before but Jin's d+4 being -4f on hit isn't a completely bad thing. This opens up possibility of ss uf+4 or ss df+1>4 (max delay), granted the opponent doesn't do a tracking move (Jin blocks). ss into df+1>4 or uf+4 at certain anticipation moments can yield nice results, especially with Jin at anywhere between -5f to 0f at range 1. Risky tactic but if you must be offensive, know and test when to ss and bdc into CH baits.

Probably Jin's only real mind game comes from df+1>4 (delay) CH baits and bdc~iws+2 defensive positioning. Don't spam bdc~iws+2 because it is whiff and block punishable.

Everything above and block punishment. Jin's f+4 reliably punishes Heihachi's f,f+2, Hwoarang's normal SR, Lee's BK, etc. with -17f and pushback. His wall game is there, though not as strong as most of the cast.

Basically, Jin is a mid-tier character and if you play with Jin, you're skating uphill somewhat. But not as bad as some other characters.
Crimzon
War Lord
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 742
From: USA Hawaii
PSN: Crimzon808
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Throwing a lot forces people to duck. Some people consider throwing cheap, but hell its part of the game, it can be duck/ws_launched or broken. Throws are good for Jin because it works nicely with his "burst" style of pitbulling.

A.k.a: 1 (+3f on block), d/f+1 (+1f on block), 2,1 (+1f on block), d/f+1>4 (-7f on block)...bdc_iws+2 bait. (This is just an example of one of my typical "burst" strings.

Substituting a throw in gives: 1, d/f+1, 2,1, throw.

I like to repeat safe patterns so people fall into the groove of blocking a certain way. So when they think, oh he'll finish this burst with d/f+1>4...they get thrown instead...or hit with d/b+4 or d+3,3...etc.

Throw enough and people start magically ducking into mids...

Also, throwing...even if they get broken 100% of the time...helps to slow/switch momentum. For instance, I like to throw with Tidal wave (u/f+1+2) when my back is to the wall, so if it lands I get dmg+oki....and when its broken it switches position so they are up against the wall where you can begin to wallrape them. Its a win win situation.

As a side note: You really shouldn't be *looking* for eCD+1 or hopkick with Jin. They should be used strictly as punishers or anticipated sidestep frame traps.
j00n
Getting Old
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 955
From: USA New York
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Crimzon
Throwing a lot forces people to duck. Some people consider throwing cheap, but hell its part of the game, it can be duck/ws_launched or broken. Throws are good for Jin because it works nicely with his "burst" style of pitbulling.

A.k.a: 1 (+3f on block), d/f+1 (-2f on block), 2,1 (+1f on block), d/f+1>4 (-7f on block)...bdc_iws+2 bait. (This is just an example of one of my typical "burst" strings.

Substituting a throw in gives: 1, d/f+1, 2,1, throw.

I like to repeat safe patterns so people fall into the groove of blocking a certain way. So when they think, oh he'll finish this burst with d/f+1>4...they get thrown instead...or hit with d/b+4 or d+3,3...etc.

Throw enough and people start magically ducking into mids...

Also, throwing...even if they get broken 100% of the time...helps to slow/switch momentum. For instance, I like to throw with Tidal wave (u/f+1+2) when my back is to the wall, so if it lands I get dmg+oki....and when its broken it switches position so they are up against the wall where you can begin to wallrape them. Its a win win situation.

As a side note: You really shouldn't be *looking* for eCD+1 or hopkick with Jin. They should be used strictly as punishers or anticipated sidestep frame traps.


df+1 is -2f on block.
Crimzon
War Lord
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 742
From: USA Hawaii
PSN: Crimzon808
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Gah...I've been thinking it was +1 this entire time. Guess I've been getting away with it since people are afraid of d/f+1>4...I'm going to have to make some serious adjustments to my *strings* now. <3 j00n.
zchikmhagnet
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1205
From: Philippines
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
quick way to make people duck more quickly..
push them far using EWHF..
CD+4's
well placed random lows and throws then WD~CDS~WD..
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Tiexandrea
Zombie On Your Lawn
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5438
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by zchikmhagnet
quick way to make people duck more quickly..
push them far using EWHF..
CD+4's
well placed random lows and throws then WD~CDS~WD..


better way to teach them to duck: spam 1,d+3

later on, they'll start ducking d/f+1 on reaction
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angelo_dvgene
Champion
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 269
From: Philippines
PSN: shin_ANGELzer0
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
What i do is that I do the CDS dance repeatedly at the begginning of the match to make space, nothing more, nothing less. Then later in the match I pull off a CDS to CD=1... not that flashy and it's risky, but it works for me in most situations.

My mixups rely on CDS and the fundamental 2,1,4~4 mixup... 124 works too...
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Kickasscrew
Champion
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 268
From: Australia
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by angelo_dvgene
What i do is that I do the CDS dance repeatedly at the begginning of the match to make space, nothing more, nothing less. Then later in the match I pull off a CDS to CD=1... not that flashy and it's risky, but it works for me in most situations.

My mixups rely on CDS and the fundamental 2,1,4~4 mixup... 124 works too...


2,1,4~4 and 2,1,4 is not a mixup. If people in your arcade can't see 2,1,4~4 then they seriously have slow reactions. I would have a fun times at your arcade with Bryan's df+3.
DevilKnight
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1572
From: England
PSN: DevilKnight9999
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
d/f+1,4~4 is easily blockable on reaction even for beginners. But becomes almost invisible when the opponent is under pressure and you've been using d/f+1,4 over and over for a while.
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Welsh Steel
Sage
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 473
From: Wales
PSN: Welsh__Steel
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by DevilKnight
d/f+1,4~4 is easily blockable on reaction even for beginners. But becomes almost invisible when the opponent is under pressure and you've been using d/f+1,4 over and over for a while.


Agreed, Jin is all about the mind games. He has only 2 real punishing lows which are risky but if you play him well enough its enough to make your oppenent worry. Hiding your lows is key, i hardly do them cause a lot of Jin's mid moves are 2 useful, taking advantage of an oppenents mistake with u/f+4 or if failing that a well ranged d/f+1,4 or 2,4 is just 2 good. Turtle your oppenent for a bit and then consider offensive tactics once your oppenents got in his mind your going to keep this stragegy going, if your desperate for a low i use b+1,d/f+4 , its a real gem which no one expects. I even at distance make the impression i've missed him with a cds+4 and follow up with a 3+4.

Jin is a great mix up character for any1 who understands tekken, even tho hes got the most boring move list in the game
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furyblitz
2nd Dan
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 26
From: Australia
PSN: lexd123
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
I havnt got anyone with d/f+1,4~4 in like 500+ games lol
all blocked and punished..
but i love doing 2,1,4 when the enemy is back turned.. it feels painful lol
Welsh Steel
Sage
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 473
From: Wales
PSN: Welsh__Steel
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by furyblitz
I havnt got anyone with d/f+1,4~4 in like 500+ games lol
all blocked and punished..
but i love doing 2,1,4 when the enemy is back turned.. it feels painful lol


lol, maybe try and mix 2,1 and d/f+1 with the low. I'm suprised that many people have blocked it against u most peeps i face are idiots but maybe its my pressure game
Signature - the secret to my power, speed, looks? Well i was born and bred in The Valley's you see!

CursedAvenger
Shihan
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 109
From: Philippines
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Exactly how do i perform these mixups?

And anyway what i like to do is spam 2,1 then go for 214~4

Any other mixups that you guys could suggest.
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