Hehe, good and constructive criticism. Scary in a way that someone who doesn't play Jin probably would do better then most who does.
Well I have a friend who is among the best players i Sweden, he is somewhere around the top 3~1 player here. I hate him, , he rips off my tactics and just wrecks havoc with Jin sometimes, noted that he newer plays Jin otherwise. He has one of the fastets movements and execution around here and a very good defence that makes you just wanna quit tekken sometimes as it just feels pointless trying to get some moves to connect. Well Point being, Jin is very basic, so the better player you are the better you're going to fare with Jin. It's not as with some characters that are so complex that you'll win a lot because your opponent simply don't understand what to do.

I absolutly love jin. Even though I'm more of a steve player, Jin is actually more FUN to play. Mainly because he's the most fair character. He doesn't have massivly cheap moves like steve's dbl alb strings, but he doesn't have terrible moves too. He's a nice balance. I sure wish Tekken 6 will make everybody as balanced as jin is now. It'll make everybody THINK about how they use their moves, rather than just depending on the little BS stuff that you can throw out all the time.

As for f+3, i personally use it all the time as just an extra mid poke in addition to the df+2 or df+2,4 (which is really good poke). Sure there isn't tooo much range, but its just as long as df+2. Its more like a replacement IMO to df+2 due to it's similar range. the fact that its just a different animation makes it a good mindgame tool.

Sometimes I spam the move (at close range) the same as some roger players spam df+4 or any mishima's df+4,4 (or delayed 4). its fast, and you can repeat it fast too.
And as for df+3, YMR's totally right. People don't really see the difference between df+3 and f+3. I think its another mindgame tool

I would like to point out that bf2 hit confirm 1 is really good. It's Jins most damaging yet safe mid if done properly and can also lure out different behaviors from people.

I usually only bf2 after I've connected 1, 12, 2, df1 on hit or ff4 on bock/hit as my safe mid poke option. Then is hard or impossible to step. There are many uses for bf21 it's not a magic move, but good none the less. It takes some skill before you get used to the hit confirm, so does mishimas 11<2 to and all the other hit confirms. It's skill and it need some practice.
Funniest thing doing this move is that playing longer sets with my friends who knows that they should duck the "1". Some of them get used to poke back after a while because I only do the bf2 on block. So when they get to cocky and poke back a little to much, bam CH <1,2!!!. Else you can do just bf2 then side step or back dash. And if they are to passive just waiting for the 1. Then do a second bf2 or some safe mid move. Sometimes you can even throw them as they stand there waiting.

ff2 is a super nice move to. Sure it can be punished at walls. And some of you might actually get. But used with some care about angles near the wall you're of good. Darn it gives a wall splat, does 25 damage and is virtually safe due to push back. The only real weakness this move has is that it's easy to SSR. One more thing. it's only -11 in T5, is this changed in DR? If not then no tackles or electrics, just jabs would connect, no biggie.

Hey guys can you put up some tips on beating BOB? when he performs heavy pressure, i usually wait for the right time to duck nd do WS2.... But i think its not always te right thing to do esp when im stuck on the walls.....

(sory man im not raelly a bob expert... )

I wanted to ask... can any one find the right time to use cds4 ? its nice on hit
and i think its unpunishble on block?

any way... when? can i do it after some thing? or in some places ? (like back to the wall etc...)

I wana use this one , i just cant find when... i will be glad for some help here

The only good time to use CDS 4 is when your opponent will come rushing in with jabs strings and other high hitting attacks. Most people don't low parry this attack; either they'll block or interrupt. The one thing I hate the most about CDS 4 is it's inconsistency with juggling.

Concerning Hwoarang... A well placed hopkick during RFS and LFS rushes is okay. Don't crouch too often; it's okay to take a few low hits, but once you start crouching, you'll be getting launched if you don't think ahead(this applies for when you go up against any character). Hwoarang's jabs get plus frames on block. Just be patient and wait for a whiff or a good opportunity to punish or interrupt. d+4,4 and RFF f,f+4,3 are duckable on block.

Against Yoshi's f,f+1+2: Always attempt a low parry. Speaking from experience, after f,f+1+2, BT d+2 -> FC lows or BT 3 (and now maybe BT u/f+4) are the only options I see after f,f+1+2. My opponent on Saturday (KBP) was using this, yet I didn't low parry when I knew that I could.

Quesion: What's the best attack to use against Lee's HMS sidestep? I always end up just backing because I don't want to whiff and get launched by HMS 2...

Last edited by RoyalFlush on Mar 7th, 2007 at 01:50

How to face a Pitbull Nina Williams and Baek Doo San? I have difficulties in those characters... by the way I'm a certified Feng Wei...

bigM- Never. Move is unsafe on block. He has better options.

Royal- Lees HMS sidestep is misleading. If you take half a second to realign yourself, ANY move will hit. I often times get a CH B+2 off of this as Lee's HMS2 is 19 frames roughly. So I realign, and CH B+2. But if you don't realign.....ouch. Also it has auto block, so if you dont have a safe mid to throw out there, go with a low.


Shen- I dont know how to play against any of those chars...

^^^Guess my best option would be d/b+4 then. I usually wait to make him whiff the HMS 2, otherwise, I just back off and he does HMS 1~f. In my tournament match against him, I did get him with 1,2,4, but it may have hit with sheer luck.

VS. Nina: Just don't whiff anything or you'll get hit by SS+2, which ridiculously good evasive properties (as do many of Nina's attacks, either they crush highs/lows, or involve a SS). Watch for FC d/f+4s mixed in with pokes and SS+1 mix-ups. Don't sidewalk too much or d/f+1+2 will CH (that's if your opponent chooses to use this attack). d/b+3+4 is punishable with EWHF or f+4. Lots of her launchers are jab punishable. Look for whiffs, then do ECD+1 (universal against all characters, really)

VS. Baek: IF your opponent's Baek is good, he'll be using lots of FLA mids and lows, especially when you try to get up. Just keep that in mind. Other than that, I don't have much to say because I don't play against Baek's on a regualar basis.

I dont think I will use CDS4...

now I have bigger things to worry about
I need some help with Ganryu... may be some tips will help
any thing you can say on Jin Vs Ganryu

carefull with highs(many techcrouch move wich HURT)and carefull with abusing punches(ganny punchparry hurts alot).

stand straight up after youve been knocked down,especially after juggles.dont sideroll or backroll,you wont be able to tech anyway after the 1+2 ender,just stand staright up as fast as possible.you may be eating a df3,but thats still better then eting 1+2s and backrolljuggles.


after df2+3,lay there and eat the 1+2,its guaranteed anyway.then stand up.


df1,4 tracks to his left and is ss able.but its delayable,so be carefull.3rd hit of that string can be ducked.df14 itself is -15 now.do a low jab on block or go into mixups.

df2 tracks to his right.dont ss to his right.

he has no weaknesses other then beeing a bit slow.but he can hurt ppl and dominate matches very easy.

For Hwoarang, alot of Flamingo stance movement leaves him open and if he sees you trying to interruprt him he'll strike first. So its a waiting game, use a parry for quick hitting moves like LFS, 4 _ RFS, 3. Or sidewalk when u see non tracking moves, another weakness is alot of highs mixed in with Bob's strings like if he's trying to keep block pressure on you then suddenly uses a low, u have time to duck or parry/block i fyou know the possibilities running from LFS, etc.

Distance, keep it, if all else fails you can retreat and full on turtle, wait for gaps then ewhf or ecd+1 when u see an opening, carry to a wall and pressure and damage him from there.

For Baek, quick hitter, sometimes confusing strings and fear of locking up against him. If the Baek player is good he'll wait to see how u respond each time then mix it up or keep exploiting a weakness in your game. Stances can be irritating so dont rush in to interrupt or stand still, keep a parry ready or use throws to break up strings and mixups. Remember throws are quicker and more damaging, so use them. Lows as well, Baek can strive on u whiffing because he has a number of quick launchers and his oki game is excellent. So with hat said, dont be in any hurry to tech or roll back, take the damage and move, or if he risks it and assumes a long string will catch (guessing you'll tech) then you have to remember which hit of the string catches on grounded and hit before it does on you.

That is all probably pretty confusin, let me know if that didnt make sense lol

Basic universal Jin strategy vs. all chars:

When you want to reach out with jabs, dash up 12 (has ridiculously long range for real). Why dash up? It helps it track or align.

When you're already in jab range, then opt for 21. You have +1, but don't attack. Watch first. If they always attack, backdash for a free hopkick. If they stay still, backdash anyways, then dash in and keep the pressure.

When you have them confused, stay in EWHF range. At this range, d/b+4 is not launch punishable, so you can throw it out more willingly. Don't use d+4 more than this one because it has worse frames on block and it's less damage.

When you are winning the match, only launch as whiff punishing. Don't be trying to land CD~WS2 when you are up on health and the other guy just needs to keep tacking on hits. While you are up, play it stupid. REALLY stupid. I'm talking:
1) 21_214
2) d/f+1>4
3) f+3
4) d+3
5) d/b+4 max range
6) bf+2>1

Not giving away any real damage with the exception of d+3 midscreen, because it's -11 on block but people have to guess if you're going to throw out the followup or not.

When you are losing, go for high risk/high reward such as CD4 into d/b223 and such things. ECD1 should be your bigger reward mid unless you are playing against Heihachi, Feng and Bryan (althrough Mishimas, Jin, Bruce and Paul get above average damage at -12 too).

Use f+4 once you are sure that the guy is extremely aggressive. Don't do it too often or people will start to step it.

Use bf+2>1 to track both directions. It will NOT track SWR once the other guy is about 3/4ths of a character away. Learn how to hit-confirm it.

When you are around 1 1/2 to 2 character spaces away, try and duck after you backdash. Unless they throw out mid,mid strings like DJ bf21, you will more than likely be able to duck their second high hit with distance and be able to launch with WS2.


---

Everything else that you do is just icing on the cake.

Last edited by Gandido on Mar 11th, 2007 at 23:26

Gandido I respect that, some of that wud be incorporated into my own strategy, but its not universal. Countless numbers of Jin players on these boards have said it all depends on the character, that list of info there is based on the player. Im just stating this because you will not always get the opportunity to employ those strategies. Rush down players wont let you get that kind of distance for d/b+4 without punishment (you wont get the space to use it maz distance). But its a good start.

You not a big CDS or WD player I take it? lol

CDS is unnecessary. And Jin does not need wavedash.

If people are rushing you down in this game, they are already losing. This game is so turtle-based it's not even funny.

And if you actually finished reading, I already said that you should employ f+4 when you have determined that they are attacking.

As for me not being a big wavedasher, ask anyone that plays me. I can lightdash from 2p side and get a decent wave from 1p, but with Jin, it's JUST NOT NECESSARY.

The whole point in this game is that when you get the lead, to not waste it. Hence playing as safely as possible. When I'm losing, you'll see my DJ do a shitload of Hellsweeps and CD~WS2, but when I'm winning, I'll VERY RARELY throw out a hellsweep, so while people know I won't hellsweep, I'll be getting in a LOT of d+4, which are safe on distance with Devil Jin.

If you want to play an eternal high risk you can be my guest. Just remember that 2-3 wrong guesses and you are done too, whereas when you are up on life, you want to give the guy the most number of guesses possible that they need to guess correctly in order to kill you. When you are down on life, you just want to guess for damage.

Besides, when it all comes down to it, it doesn't matter how many gimmicks or advanced tactics you might know, it will ALWAYS come down to who has his basics down better, because that's why they are called basics. If you lack them, you are done. And what I did in my post is give a rundown of all the basics that Jin needs to employ to be effective.

I never said to play a high risk game, I was saying that rush downs can force a number of players to lock up or throw out stupid offences rather than smart ones (for high reward). I never said CDS or WD were necessary, I just aksed do you use them, this is why I said I respected your tips. Im a turtle based player, well shudnt any Jin? But I was saying you have to know that its not that simple to slow any game pace down to baiting and frame games.

CDS can be an excellent movement tool or even a good baiting technique IF you use it correctly, and I dont mean let the opponent see the actual animation and wait, Im talkin cancels to Cd,s to cancels to BD to f,f+2 etc the mixups are endless and they all come from defensive strategies.

But hoping we can agree on this at least: scenario A - you're getting rushed down by the opponent, without throwing out high risk high rewards status moves, what are your main strategies?

One example of mine: If I see a rush down and Im waiting for a mistake or misjudgement of space and the opponent whiffs,etc I would crush or poke with d/b+1, FC then go from there IF its close range or a quick break of a string e/g/ Baek.

Or throw out ws+2, iws+4, u/f+2 (usually with eSS), etc - Im just trying to say there are other options and more common ways to slowing down a rushed match. These can stop it just as quickly as the ones you've noted but that's why I dont think its entirely universal.

I think crushing with a low jab is completely stupid since it lacks range and Jin doesn't have quite a FC game to merit it's usage for mixing up. It just gives you that frame advantage and that's it. It's also extremely avoidable if they decide to not attack at that moment, which usually would lead to me either Hei TP, hopkick, etc. =\

CDS cancelling or "shimmy": Why would you do this instead of BDC? I know that certain moves like CD1 come out easier from CDS but it seems like such a waste of time and inputs IMO. BDC all day basically turns CDS useless, from both the opponnent backdashing, and you backdashing to employ almost all the same uses.

The only time I'll use CDS is at the wall when I'm trying to see if people are jab happy. I know that CDS crushes some jabs and in the wall that gets me a free CDS1,2 splat. But that's about it.

If you're getting rushed down, it usually means you are not moving. An example of this would be the RoyalFlush vs. M4 match. There was a point where I was like, "SSR RF!". If you look at that vid, M4 goes into a berserk kind of state where he's doing b+1,1ms d/f+1, 12 etc. d/f+1, 12 = Jin SSR into launch with either a hopkick or d+3+4. There's a lot of factors to this so called "rushdown" that it usually depends on the player's lack of knowledge of the other character.

So if we want to play your scenario, it would depend really. Just try and remember that when you're holding back, nothing really happens. I don't mind having to block a barrage of things because nothing is really happenning. Just remember that if someone does 2 things in a row, they are either vulnerable to:
1) backdash into launch
2) sidestep into launch/12, etc

If you want a more in-depth answer, try and be more specific.

The d/b+1, FC is not a strategy, its usually a one off or response to mid/high mixup barrage, for ppl like Steve especially in 5.1 it was difficult to SS or BD because they knew what they were fu*king doing with him. The range, obviously it hasnt good goo distance, and obviously you dont use it at random, its for a poke, CH, get frames, or generally break up strings and frame games. Why would you ever use it if you saw them stand still? That's just tryin to make me look stupid when I never said I did that.

CDS~1,2 is an excellent asset when placed correctly, in fact all of ur answer to me sounds as if Im spamming everything I say during a match. Which is pretty presumptuous, I was offering possible pokes etc.

And on that note, with BDC and CDS cancel, you would hardly keep doing it if the opponent started to back awaay, why would anyone do that if they arent even close? I stated the environment for that technique IF you like that style. And your right BDC can offer similar properties to CDS but its the chance of crushing with it and quick strike capabilities that I think give it the edge, not to say I'd only ever use CDS alone.

With regards to the pitbull style attack, I said it CAN be a good bargain to force lock ups on ppl who dont kknow how to slow the game down, break it, retalliate and punish. I never said I was a victim of it. Smart players who know how to pitbull will not leave spaces for simple SS and BD, they keep movement, tracking maneuvers, and push back moves or even just to get frames. And if you are overaggressive, which characters do you play besides Jin? Because with Jin, in 8/10 situations I'd say you WILL be turtling and playing smart to pull off a victory. You said when you know you have to win, surely your always trying to win in a match?

That might sound offensive to you but Im just trying to state that you said your strat was universal and to the point. Excellent strat but like I said before IMO its not ENTIRELY universal, and I just got slightly irritated that you made me sound as if I was talking strats for playing scrub pitbulls and spamming stuff like d/b+1. Because they were possible options if you know what your doing, any player worth his salt will know not to throw out the same old moves over and over again e.g. f+3 close range over and over, its a select move, you gotta pick your moments, mainly cos of its range and decent speed - dont need to dwell on this, your obv a good player from what I gather and you obv know the frame data.

DO you understand me a bit better? You said be specific but we started talking about a universal strategy to begin with lol

Tom: I can be aggressive with ANY character I pick just as long as I know what the other guy is doing.

I play all Mishimas, Jin, King, Lee, Law, Bob, A.King, Roger Jr. and a couple more.

If you're pitbulling, and you are not leaving spaces for BD or sidestep, it means that at some point, you are either dashing up to keep doing quick moves, or you are throwing out longer distance slow moves. All of those moments are vulnerable to a quick jab (just a single 1, for safety's sake) or any quick move from the other guy.

I never said that you were spamming d/b+1. I only said that IMO it's a shitty move. The only time where I would consider using it is when I am backed into a wall and I need something to tilt the frame advantage in my favor so I can opt to sidestep away from the wall after.

You would be surprised at how often you can keep hitting people with the same move over and over because they think you are going to change it up. That's how you end up rushing people down.

Anyways, I got a class soon, so I'll get back at your coming reply later tonight.

Before I leave though, you said that low jabbing was a response to a mid/high mixup barrage:

Just hold back on the stick/pad, and you'll be good to go.

People are so hung up on trying to do something and on this game just block.

lol no worries

I said alot of ppl lock up, to pitbulls, good ones anyway, but its cool cos whenever I pitbull I try n make sure I have moves that'll evade and crush or that will get CH off their poke if I guess right. But same move usually lands a punishment in my experience on the defensive. The other thing, is mainly with Feng and Steve, or Bryan in some cases is that they can be great for pitbulling but at the same time holding the opponent close, and if you watch some match vids you'll see how they dont leave gaps or big openings, a 2 round temporary state but you get what I mean. Everyone throws a round or 2 when they high risk or try to poke pitbuillers at the wrong time. I mean Im sure we were all shoutin at the screen for that RF match. Seen him play some awesome matches tho truth be told.

I like your comment that you can pitbull with anyone providing u know what the opponent is gonna do, which is like mind reading lol or like sayin I can win any match if I know my opponent is gonna lose lmfao

Nah im just kiddin ya, but d/b+1 crap if you dont place it but handy in a tight spot like you said. Glad I finally have someone to discuss stuff with on here, aint been on in months like. Hopin there'll be another London tourney soon, love to go vacation in London and play some top notch competition.

Oh and on a funny note I watched one of ur matches against a paul and saw you throw out an awful d/b+1 with DJ where there was quite a bit of space and you paid for it lmao - btw you play as much now? Been to many EVOs?