Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
# “Quote” Edit Post
*As a note, I don't play anymore. I don't like what Lee became in T7 under the T7 system changes and without consideration for how that affected him and change the kind of character he is. The following are notes on fixes as well as recommendations for things that would contribute a significant restoration of identity (highest execution requirements, highest output when meeting those requirements--interesting to play, king of carry and combo [basically his character identity for T4, T5, DR, T6, BR]). Such additions would make me want to legitimately play again.

HMS cancels

d+3,4~B allows you to block on the first frame recovered (so i16 can be blocked, i15 registers as a punish). Other HMS cancels do not act this way. In addition to being highly variable as to whether they make a move recover better (d+3, FC,d/f+4, b+1:1, etc.) or recover worse on frames (b+2,4, b+4[?]), the normal cancel out of HMS after a move is 2 frames (hold B) or 1 frame to cancel to D/B or D/F. The d/b or d/f can be in the bufferable period of recovery (ala FC,d/f+4:d/b,b_fc,d/f+4,3:qcb), improving the recovery and ability to block by 1 frame over holding B, but still 1 frame behind the move's actual recovery into HMS (So, FC,d/f+4 is -14, FC,d/f+4,3 is technically -13, but FC,d/f+4,3~B only blocks i15, and FC,d/f+4,3:qcB blocks i14, but still loses to i13. Punish doesn't actually register as a punish until i12).

So what? Maybe give some consideration to cancels into and out of HMS I suppose. Or maybe d+3,4:qcb being able to block i15 (the cancel adds a frame to recovery to move, though, so this makes b+3,3 pickup while still possible, harder in this case [as d+3,4:qcb+3,3], which is a fair trade).

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f+2>1
Second hit can be ducked even when the first hits. Fix this. Either extend the NC window to match max delay (preferable since lag is the name of the game in current gen), or at least don't let the second hit come out after the NC window (even if it means cutting the max delay).

Also, from angle and especially at the wall, f+2,(1) should not be a thing.

At an angle or vs. BT opponent at wall, make f+2,1 splat.

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Identity:
Lee used to have the best carry (tied with Nina, Lee having iWS+2,3 at aerial hits 9,10), among the highest damage in game in mid-stage juggles (b+4, d+3 finish at aerial hits 9,10), and the best distance control with ability to save B! for wall combo (WS+2,3 at aerial hits 7,8 while saving B!) to milk more wall damage.

The system changes killed this. They actually lessened Lee's max carry until the recent season by 2 hits. In the current season, to get those max hits, we also sacrifice 2 damage (f+4,1 instead of WS+2,4). Further, at max hits (aerial hits 9,10), we only get f+2,1 finish now instead of iWS+2,3 (where WS+2,3 is a much better tool to wall because of recovery and control). b+4, d+3 is not reasonable late in juggle due to change to S! system from B! (was reliable at aerial hits 9,10, now only really reliable at 6,7 and only when sacrificing to weaker S! ender). Control while saving B!/S! is irrelevant now.

As for wall damage, Lee is pretty low in the cast for total wall damage now. b+4, u/b+3 works, but without a B! into it now, it wastes all the slump build-up that normal combos have (additional hits). Other characters that have a meaty spike into hard ground hit can normally hit their spike as a low wall hit, but when Lee does this, it is tech rollable.

Lee also used to have some of the best oki in the game. With new system changes, that's all pretty much gone. No solid 50/50's at wall that are legitimately scary. Jump over tech catch at wall can be mashed out of. Old 50/50 let us use d/f+1 vs. standers to confirm resplat into same situation, or f+3+4 vs. people who stayed down into guaranteed WS+3,(3)_WS+3,3. If they side-rolled d/f+1, could sometimes hit, or still leave us at advantage (or d+3 follow). Was 100% safe, confirmable. Both options strong, and both options Lee advantage even when opponent guessed correctly.
Example: https://youtu.be/hMsxrp7XbKo?t=244

S! system requires vast sacrifice of hits to get jump-over tech catch mid-stage (used to just sacrifice the ender, allowing jump-over after aerial hits 7,8 to B!, now only works reliably to aerial hits 3,4, basically).
Along with this oki, option select used to be a good deterrent to wake-up kicks (SSL, D/F) because it would avoid mid, and from SSL, b+1:1~f,N would connect because of the angle. This is no longer true in T7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzV09m1q_qQ

Further, it makes jump-over tech catches (mixed with late momentum reset refloat) average to LESS damage than normal combos when guessed right at 50%(it used to be more, but just more variable than guaranteed combos) because after the jumpover tech catch, the opponent can now mash to turn and Lee only gets ff+3 still.

BR tech catch:
launch, 4,u+3, ff~b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N, f+4,3, B!, FF, U/F (opponent techs), BT d+1, (opponent turns) WS+2,3, b+1:1~f,N, d+2, b+2~f,N, f+4,3, B!, FF, d/f+3,2,3
https://youtu.be/Wye4NxcPnvk?t=191
T7 tech catch:
launch, 4,u+3,f,N,b,N+2,4, S!, FF, U/F (opponent techs), BT d+1, (opponent turns) WS+2,3, ff+3

... I hope you can appreciate how non-threatening and boring T7 Lee is in that situation compared to what he used to be (if the opponent doesn't turn, there's another combo option, but in T7 it only works from some angles, and they can always turn to mitigate damage, so it's pretty irrelevant now).

The change from B! to S! boosted most characters' carry distance and damage output, but it actually nerfed Lee's because of how momentum works (fewer hits for full carry, then damage sacrifice and sub-optimal ender for full carry in S3, cannot use proper high damage ender late in juggle), and not being able to save it (S!) for wall, his unique ability for good S!-less carry is rather pointless. In some instances, using S! and it giving extra range actually requires removing one hit, and even when using his stronger S! (WS+2,4), this only comes out 1 damage ahead of his S!-less carry. He got a slight nerf by that system even as everyone else (except Nina, RIP) became relatively better.

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MS cancel issues

b+3,3~f,N and d/f+3+4~f,N and HMS 1~f,N series do not act as other MS cancels still.

If you do 1,2~f,N:f+3 you get f+3 (where : denotes frame of recovery where you no longer get MS+3)
You can install one f input in this MS, so 1,2~f,N,f*:f+3 gives ff+3 (where * denotes and installed f during MS)
Likewise, 1,2~f,N:f will not dash, but 1,2~f,N,f*:f will dash

This is also true for b+2~f,N

b+3,3~f,N and d/f+3+4~f,N an HMS 1~f,N will not you dash out of them like this. Particularly in the case of d/f+3+4~f,N, this prevents us from doing better combos. If the MS here acted like the other MS cancels, the following combo should be perfectly possible, for example:
WS+2,3, d/f+3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N,b,N+2,4, S!, WR+3,4

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So right now, Lee has some problems with some specific moves. I haven't played a lot of season 3, so I won't comment too much on things with certain frame changes I'm not real aware of (like 1+2... heard it's better on block again, but unsure if that's only HMS or normal, too).

Here's my list of what I consider fixes for things that I consider broken, and then suggests to deal with his identity issues.
FIXES:
f+2>1 should be natural combo for as long as the delay is allowed
f+2,1 should not whiff the second hit at angle
f+2,1 should always splat at wall

f+4 tracking should be improved such that splat, SSL, 4,3,4, (w), 4,u+3, f+(4),3 doesn't whiff the f+4

b+3,3~f,N and d/f+3+4~f,N and HMS 1~f,N series MS cancels should be given the same behavior as his other MS cancels (one f install allowed, dash allowed out of MS post-MS move window [like AFTER when it would be MS+3, for example]). I think nobody at Namco realizes these are different from the old cancels. The uncancellable moves were all added or reworked in T7, specifically.
This affects 3 things...
WS+2,3, d/f+3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N... would become reliable
b+3,3~f,N,f*:f+3 would hit late in combo as another finish or maybe on weird side angles
[HMS] SS, 1~f,N,f*:f would allow us to dash out of the MS when following dives that missed us due to SS
... additionally, but not the main point, it would make d/f+3+4 late in juggle (which sucks), slightly less sucky because we could follow by running out of the MS into WR+3,4 or f+2,1.



Suggestions:

Make WS+2,3 into b+1:1~f,N connect again from SSL angle and opponent turning after our jump-over BT d+1 (preferably into b+1:1~f,N, d+2, b+2~f,N.... like it used to). This would give a decent tech catch threat. (For the record, deep SSR angle, like slide thread vs. opponent tech right, also gave WS+2,3, b+1:1~f,N, f+4,3 back in BR... d+2 wouldn't hit there, but presumably we'd get b+1:1~f,N, f+4,1 at least...)

Fixing mid-stage juggles:
considerations:
- we want b+4, d+3 finish without sacrificing hits if possible
- ideally we want iWS+2,3 at max number of hits
- we want jump-over tech catch without sacrificing pre-S! hits
... essentially, we need to be closer/recover faster where S! happens (looking at you, aerial hit 8)

suggestions:
- first, add an MS cancel to WS+2,4, as WS+2,4~f,N. For standing purposes, this would put you in their face. To be fair, it should be + on hit still (and leave you closer, maybe less +) but - on block (maybe sans block stagger?).
- at the least, make WS+2,4~f,N act like traditional MS cancels, where you can install one f and dash out on recovery, allowing WS+2,4~f,N,f*:f to act as WS+2,4 into MS into dash/run

alternate addition that could fix mid-stage juggle issues:
Combine the above with...
- make MS+3+4 an extended mist step with added speed and distance, maybe holdable for a third/farthest range (but not fast enough to combo off of outside of S!), and make it f-installable as with traditional MS cancel moves
... further, that should give a good distance that would allow for things like...
u/f+4, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4~f,N, S!, b+4, d+3
or
u/f+4, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, b+4, d+3
or
u/f+4, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, iWS+2,3
u/f+4, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, U/F (opponent techs), BT d+1...
or
u/f+4, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N,b,N+2,4~ff,N,3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, late d+2 (opponent doesn't tech), b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N...
or
u/f+4, SSL~4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4~f,N,f*:f, S!, WR+3,4
or (if a two-extension one with hold that cover enough distance)
u/f+4, SSL~4,u+3, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, 1:1~f,N,b,N+2,4~f,N,3+4*, S!, b,N+2,3 (sway+2,3 version of WS+2,3)



Moving on...
u,u/b
This is trash, especially with the HMS transition. Why would you even? Remove this.

And then...
3~3:4
This used to have good oki. Now its oki is straight trash because of system changes in T7. Maybe give a guaranteed follow-up, like long enough for d,d/b+4 at least, if not f+3+4. This would make it strong enough to go for and make it his strongest wall finish, while sacrificing a lot of damage if you miss. This would be good and fit what his character identity was and should be--execution-intensive but high reward.
... while we're on the topic of 3~3:4, why is 3~3 -10 on block, but 3~3:4 on missed JF -11 on block. Was this intentional?

Without reasonable wall oki, he should have higher wall combo damage output, whereas his current finisher is no longer highly competitive (in BR it was great because of the oki post-B!, and he usually got a lot more output because of his ability to save B! for the wall--he no longer has either of those things). 3~3:4 change to giving a guaranteed d,d/b+4 could help with this issue. Again, it would become his highest output ender, at the risk of missing it.

If you make mist trap real strong or a strong ender at wall, etc., you could balance it, too, by making Lee do the kick but make it duckable/blockable and he's grounded when the JF is missed (including on hit). This might be a good middle ground:
- hit or blocked JF, animates spark, leads to follow-up
- counter hit, non-JF, second hit NC, Lee grounded
- normal hit, non-JF, jails, second hit blockable, Lee grounded
- blocked hit, non-JF, second hit duckable, Lee can be floated or mini combo or something--guaranteed grounded hit at least.
... this would mean that non-JF at the wall would do a little less than normal wall enders, and Lee would lose momentum as he would also be grounded. When executed properly, it would be the max damage wall ender.
(w) 3~3:4, d,d/b+4 for example


Moving on...
d/f+3+4 is pretty sad as far as rage drives go, and doesn't have a lot of application
... it does nothing from behind (several wake-up situations)
... is not useful late in juggle (too far away to catch up and do anything)
... poor on block (no pressure off it)
... useless at the wall either standing or in combo
... any time a normal combo can be done, the rage art finish always does more damage

Options are either to rework the d/f+3+4 RD, or add another RD

Ideas for other RD...

Some RD version of WR+3,4
- input maybe WR+3+4,4?
- could give B! or spike them to the ground for follow-up (like Drag). IMO, spike would be best since that covers the late side of combos that d/f+3+4 doesn't cover well, currently
- comes out faster than WR+3,4 (not OP because of fff input)
- lower hitbox than WR+3,4
- longer range than WR+3,4
- if done out of MS at wall, ideally (w) b+2~f,N,f*:ff+3+4,4 would hit with the first hit (equivalent of the WR+3) as 60% low wall, then the second hit coming quickly after so as to spike). Or b+2~f,f*:ff+3+4,4 if you go with the WR+3+4,4 notation.
... super hard and super sexy would be something like...
ws+2,3, (w), 4,u+3~f,N,f*:ff+3+4,4, f+3+4, u/b+3 (4 hits high wall, u+3 hits normal wall, WR+3 hits 60% low wall, follow-up 4 hits normal and spikes face-down, f+3+4 hits them grounded, sandwiched to the wall, u/b+3 into wake-up)

This would work better in combos for basically everything but WS+2,3 starter mid-stage. It would give a better finisher that's not RA. It would give a way to use it in a wall combo.

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If you're keeping just the d/f+3+4 RD, at least make it resplat like Paul's at wall or something. Something like (w), 2, d/f+1, d/f+3+4, (w), SS, b+4, u/f+3 would be nice and only accessible in rage.
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If you didn't rework the mist trap at all as suggested above, perhaps give a mist trap RD that gives B! for combo, or pulls them off the wall in combo
3~3:3+4
... considering he is in rage and blocked attempt is currently -11 on block, he will probably die if they block it.

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... next
RA
Why are we so far away we can running shoulder tackle, combined with being so bad on frames that we can't? If you RA and their back is to the wall, we get pushed way back out. Feels like being punished for landing the RA.


Essentially, what I want is a return to character identity where he has among the most difficult combos, but with requisite reward if you can execute them, above and beyond the rest of the cast. Make him be unrewarding or less rewarding (same as now) with poor execution (he gave us the original JF, and has had the most JFs). Make him the king of max-damage combos again. With oki gone, figure that into it too, or at least help us get our oki situations back mid-screen. At the very, very least, give us something better with rage?

Last edited by Murakumo on Jan 9th, 2020 at 18:03

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!