feeqmatic
Shihan
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 116
# “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Baron West
Outside of RD, mids that launch on normal hit generally fall into three categories. Quick generic df2s that have short range and don't launch crouch, slow mids Like Kaz ff3, Bryan Orbital, or stance mids like Ling AOP d+1+2. Safe lows are unblockable like Yoshi Sword Sweep(slow), or Ling guard breaker,(fast no damage) or do minuscule damage like Jack's FCdb+1 or Bear db+3. There is a relationship with speed, range, safety and damage when it comes to balanced moves.

Chakram is both slow and unsafe. Two things that should not go together. 23 frames is too slow for Chakram to be -17.

As for Law, his d+2,3 is an 11 frame counter hit launcher. It is requires very little effort and judgement to connect with in a match due to it's speed. Law can do it over and over again with favorable risk reward against characters who can't launch i15. Even Kuma's G-Clef Cannon is -16. The only way to reliably launch punish the move is to step it, but that requires a hard read, and leaves one vulnerable to Law's homing moves. The notion that it is harder to connect with cH d+2,3 in a match multiple times than it is to connect with Chakram does not make any sense. You lost me with that.

However you are right when you say it is a bad analogy to compare d+2,3 to Chakram. That is simply my annoyance with fast, dominant, counter hit launcher going untouched, when a slow launcher gets even more minus on block.

I understand why you compare Gigas's ff+1+2,1+2 string to Chakram. However Gigas's ff1+2 is not only faster than Chakram(even with the ff input), it has much more range, and it is homing. While the damage is the same, the only benefit Chakram has is that it low crushes. If Chakram gained homing, I wouldn't have an issue with it being -17.

A more ideal analogy would be Lili's df+3+4. Low Crushes, no tracking, 6 points less damage, 1 frame slower, but functionally the same as Chakram as it guarantees a full combo on hit. The difference? Far more range than Chakram. Cannot be i14 or i15 launched on Block, nor can the Mid Extension be launched on block. All the opponent gets from either part of the Backflip Spinning Edge String are i10 punishes. It doesn't require tip range or anything other than holding back.

Tip range is difficult to consistently get with slow moves like Maven Chakram or Lee Skyrocket, because opponents are constantly moving, and if the opponent happens to back dash, they get a free whiff punish. If someone spaces a slow launcher so it hits at tip range, the reward should be more safety not free i15s for everyone.

There is no good reason for Chakram to be -17 on block. Not while Lili has df3+4, Leo has ff4,3, and Lei has ff3. I don't believe any of those moves needs to be nerfed, simple buffs for Chakram would be fine.


I thought about some of your comparisons here and I think I get you, but I also get why Chakram was nerfed. Essentially, Chakram is a scrub killing move that was maybe too good at it's job.

I was a former Marduk main who suffered through trying to make Gigas work from launch until earlier this year. I switched to Raven in like February and buzzsawed my way through ranked until I got to the Oranges where I was quickly cut down to size after seeing the limitations of her gimmicks.

Chakram was one of them. Unlike Lili's df3+4 or an orbital and other similar moves, Chakram has multiple follow-ups that make is an enticing tool to abuse at lower level play. Don't get me wrong, most of those follow-ups are pretty crappy options for learned players, but for those who don't know the matchup Raven feels like fighting a fricken final boss with all her shenanigans.

It's a 50-50 mixup with launch potential. With lili the only mixup is whether or not you punish after the first hit. With lili you can just hold back and nothing she can follow up with will hit. With Raven you block mid or low. 50-50's aren't just good for their instant gratification, the pressure of 50-50s add up during tense sets. So it makes sense that the require that this particular 50-50 with soooo many different options is risky for the user and not just the oppoenent.