Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
# “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by mach one
first of all you cannot simply pick two random moves from different characters and demand them to have the same risk. some characters have safe mid launchers, some have unpunishable lows, what do you make of that?

secondly, those two moves you picked are not at all a good example for your point. a slightly better example would be gigas' ff1+2<1+2. law's d23 is guaranteed 15f punishable. this move is far from spammable, if not the exact opposite of spammable. a two hit move that only combos on counter and gets launch punished on block, how on earth do you spam something like that. chakram on the other hand does not guarantee punishment on block. in fact failed punish attempt can get the punisher themselves launched by the extension. chakram is way more spammable than law's d23 if that's how you wanna compare these moves.

also, in case you haven't noticed, uf3+4 in chakram has multiple active frames. so at tip range this move was actually only -13, which makes it even trickier and riskier to punish. that's the real purpose to this nerf: to make it at least -15 at any range. characters such as anna, steve, or maven herself who couldn't launch punish it before will continue to have a hard time against well spaced chakram.

another thing i would like to point out is that heavy chakram is useless against low parry. the two lows are too far apart. there's plenty of time to parry again after missing the first one. veteran players will always parry heavy chakram. that's why they added the teleport variations in t6, just so it's not a suicide move.

Outside of RD, mids that launch on normal hit generally fall into three categories. Quick generic df2s that have short range and don't launch crouch, slow mids Like Kaz ff3, Bryan Orbital, or stance mids like Ling AOP d+1+2. Safe lows are unblockable like Yoshi Sword Sweep(slow), or Ling guard breaker,(fast no damage) or do minuscule damage like Jack's FCdb+1 or Bear db+3. There is a relationship with speed, range, safety and damage when it comes to balanced moves.

Chakram is both slow and unsafe. Two things that should not go together. 23 frames is too slow for Chakram to be -17.

As for Law, his d+2,3 is an 11 frame counter hit launcher. It is requires very little effort and judgement to connect with in a match due to it's speed. Law can do it over and over again with favorable risk reward against characters who can't launch i15. Even Kuma's G-Clef Cannon is -16. The only way to reliably launch punish the move is to step it, but that requires a hard read, and leaves one vulnerable to Law's homing moves. The notion that it is harder to connect with cH d+2,3 in a match multiple times than it is to connect with Chakram does not make any sense. You lost me with that.

However you are right when you say it is a bad analogy to compare d+2,3 to Chakram. That is simply my annoyance with fast, dominant, counter hit launcher going untouched, when a slow launcher gets even more minus on block.

I understand why you compare Gigas's ff+1+2,1+2 string to Chakram. However Gigas's ff1+2 is not only faster than Chakram(even with the ff input), it has much more range, and it is homing. While the damage is the same, the only benefit Chakram has is that it low crushes. If Chakram gained homing, I wouldn't have an issue with it being -17.

A more ideal analogy would be Lili's df+3+4. Low Crushes, no tracking, 6 points less damage, 1 frame slower, but functionally the same as Chakram as it guarantees a full combo on hit. The difference? Far more range than Chakram. Cannot be i14 or i15 launched on Block, nor can the Mid Extension be launched on block. All the opponent gets from either part of the Backflip Spinning Edge String are i10 punishes. It doesn't require tip range or anything other than holding back.

Tip range is difficult to consistently get with slow moves like Maven Chakram or Lee Skyrocket, because opponents are constantly moving, and if the opponent happens to back dash, they get a free whiff punish. If someone spaces a slow launcher so it hits at tip range, the reward should be more safety not free i15s for everyone.

There is no good reason for Chakram to be -17 on block. Not while Lili has df3+4, Leo has ff4,3, and Lei has ff3. I don't believe any of those moves needs to be nerfed, simple buffs for Chakram would be fine.

Last edited by Baron West on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 20:43

Signature An ounce of practice is generally worth more than a ton of theory.

My Youtube